08.03.25
Pursuing Joy in Creativity with David DaCosta
A conversation about finding joy in family, work, and the creative process, with David DaCosta, a designer who’s been in the industry for decades, now expressing a heritage of joy through his new series of dad joke books, Jokey Jokes.
Topics covered include: discovering community through PSU design school program, Kate Bingaman-Burt, Outlet PDX and risograph printing, the new generation of designers and their upbringing with brand, the core principles of graphic design as effective communication, the challenges of corporate design: testing and creativity, finding joy in creative work, the influence of family, humor, and storytelling on creative expression, along with the balancing act of fatherhood and creativity, David reflects on his journey of self-publishing, the impact of music on family life and creativity, how music serves as a cultural currency and how it intertwines with the creative process, David's journey into DJing, the importance of seeking diversity in communities, the significance and challenges of being present and intentional in parenting, along with the fears and curiosities that come with creative endeavors. The conversation ends with Isaac highlighting the intention behind MAUM, the interconnectedness of all these things, urging an exploration for a mindful, soulful approach to both parenting and creative expression.
Isaac
How did you get involved with PSU?
David
Well, so, it's like, I love that program so much. Like, since moving to Portland, I kind of was just like working and like the family thing, but I didn't really have like a community. And in working in the startup scene, I think one junior designer that came in, was familiar with the program and they were doing this thing called risograph printing. And I was like, oh, this looks really cool. When I was in college, I used to do screen printing and it kind of had the same effect. So I was like, what is this? Why does it look this way?
And she was like, oh, they do this risograph printing at PSU. And one of the teachers, Kate Bingaman-Burt, who is like a Portland icon and like maybe just like a general like art world illustration world icon. She's famous for famous doing illustrations of everything that she's ever purchased. So like she goes to write it and buys gum she will do an illustration of it. And she's done like illustrations of her receipts.
Isaac
Cool. Interesting.
David
So she's really like dynamic and just like makes so much work. She's a teacher at PSU and she decided to open this place called Outlet PDX, which did the Risograph printing and they started holding like workshops so you can go and learn how to do it. So...
Isaac
That's cool, yeah.
David
I was really interested in it and then at the time where I was working we were doing this thing for Pride and we were like, we should do like risograph prints of famous queer people and their quotes and then we could put it up in the hallway and people could see it or they could have the prints if they want. And that was my first time.
And I just loved how it looked like screen printing. So basically it's like a laser printer that only prints one color at a time. So they kind of layer over each other. then like the conversion of the two colors makes a third color. But then it's also an imperfect process. So like they might be misregistered a little bit.
Isaac
Okay. So like, messier.
David
So it's like it's messier, which is like, in the age of like I was a very like digital illustrator, like vector, everything is like kind of perfect. And to see like, wow, it's like not, it looks handmade. Because we're always trying to pursue that like handmade effect.
Isaac
Yeah. Yeah.
David
And to see it on the print, was like, cool, I like this. So I started going to outlet to print and then especially like during COVID, I was printing a lot there once they started getting up and running again. And around that same time, I started like thinking like, like what if I just like made my illustration look like risograph. So that's kind of like informed my style.
Isaac
Is that the style that's in your books? Yeah. Okay.
David
So I was at Outlet a lot and then just getting really close with Kate and every time I saw her it was great. And then starting to go to all the PSU events because they have portfolio reviews for the seniors, which is like anybody can go and you can just go see their work and it's like super inspiring and like these kids are like so talented like so tell the program. They just got ranked one of the best design programs in the nation now.
Isaac
Wow.
David
Yeah, so yeah, I've just kind of like started, you know I started out like an outsider and I'm still I'm not like I don't work with them, but I always like support everything they do.
Little by little I just started to get to know the people there and then it just made sense to go speak to the students and then be on the podcast. That was a long way to...
Isaac
That's no, no, no, it's good. picked up on some like what risographs are and stuff. Would you ever teach? you think is that something in your cards you feel like?
David
I think I would and I think I've been considering it more now that I've been freelancing. But I really haven't looked into like what it takes to become like an adjunct professor. I don't think it's probably anything crazy but I would love to. I think it would be a lot of fun.
Isaac
Do you think anything is missing? Is there a contrast between what you see in the skill level of what kids or students are doing right now versus when you're in school? Are they more free with their expression of design? Do you notice anything different?
David
Yeah, for sure. Like, I'm so jealous. Like, I wish I could have been in the program now. Like, I think what they have an understanding of, which I didn't when I was in school, is like a broader understanding of what brand is. Because social media has made everybody a brand.
Whether you're a designer or regular person everybody is a brand now. Yeah, this is the type of stuff that I go do on the weekend, this is the type of food that I like like this is my brand, right? So as young designers, they understand they have this inherent like knowledge of what brand is because of like the world they've grown up like in social media. Like they don't know what life is like without it like you and I might.
So they have this inherent knowledge of what brand is and that translates to their work. When they set up, they all have stickers and their websites are all great and they just have this understanding of what brand is. But I think it's not a negative, but I think what might be a challenge for them is that they just also have this kind of a fear of there's just no work and like maybe that's just being young because like for me I'm just like if there's no work for you make your own project and like like we spoke about before like enjoy the process if nobody sees it you still did something and you still made something there was an idea in your head and then you put it out into the world, congratulations not a lot of people can do that.
Isaac
Yeah.
David
And that should be enough. And if people like it and are receptive to it, that's bonus. So they understand brand way more, but I think maybe they're just a little bit more timid. When I came out of school, felt like, I graduated in 2002, it felt like, it was probably the end of that internet bubble era, but there was still a lot of possibility for work.
Isaac
Yeah.
David
Yeah, it didn't seem like that much of a struggle.
Isaac
Yeah, so when you say brand is that kind of like, would you say that's like similar to maybe like style and voice? They kind of know, they come to their own individual star voice maybe quicker compared to like maybe I imagine in the older generation of designers and graphic designers, it's like maybe you try to emulate the existing brands a little bit, or try to start there versus like free palette, just express yourself. Is that what you mean by brand or?
David
Well, yeah, a little bit. so like now I think the plus and minus of the internet is that there's so many artists and work that you can see. Whereas for me, it was like if I had like a design annual magazine. I would be like, I was like pretty limited to like what I would be inspired by. Whereas it's great to be inspired by all this stuff, but it also can be stifling like, oh my God, I don't know where to start or like, I'll never be this good kind of designer. I mean, it's like everything. It's a double-edged sword, right?
Isaac
Yeah, yeah. So you're kind of, guess, classically trained, or like you started out in graphic design. For people that don't know, how would you describe graphic design? Especially in this day and age where, if I'm not mistaken, it probably has evolved a bit, right? Graphic design.
David
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think like at its core, it is relaying information in the most digestible way. Then like, like reducing the friction to getting a message across, but also making it so that you draw people in and make them want to read the message. So like it's a fine line between like making it interesting without distracting the message. I think that's like, if you can do that, then you're making something, some good design.
Isaac
Yeah, because I think a lot of people think of graphic design, they think about like logos primarily. But I like the way that you describe that because that's in a way that's a function of design, a type of design, which is communicating something, expressing something, but with a clearer signal than without the noise of like abstract like trying to figure out what do you mean by this.
David
It's communication I would say. And like even when I make my illustration like I am like how much detail can I put into this without making it distracting. Like everything serves a purpose in the illustration so that you can look at it from a broad perspective and be like, appreciate that. But then you can also be like, I didn't notice like that. Like that's so cool that this line, like he thought to put that there. But that can like, you know, if you do it too much, if you add too much detail.
This is my philosophy because some people can be really detail-oriented artists or whatever and that's their angle, but for me it's like how simple can I make it, but also how detailed can I make it.
Isaac
Yeah, it makes me think about, I'm curious like how that translates with in-house creative working for like a corporation. So it's like, obviously a corporation has something they're selling. They want to communicate that product so that people will buy it or use it.
As a creative, how do you make that judgment call? And guess, do you believe that that maybe just exists, that's why you hire a person rather than just put it through some algorithm to test, okay, do you like this line or do you not like this line? As opposed to creative teams, the people that are talented, you hire them to make that decision for you.
I guess my question is, in this modern day and age where if say graphic design is to communicate, design is to communicate, how do you, how do you deal with that tension between like a safe or a corporation that has like a bottom line and wants to maybe do more testing or whatever, but then you kind of need to rely on maybe people to, that know this thing. Like how do you make that call? Like what is communicating well or not? I guess is my question.
David
Yeah, I mean, and there's so many. It kind of depends also on the project, right? Because if it's a brand awareness project, let's say, then the like the results are kind of squishy in a way. And I think like the tactics are a little bit squishy as well. Like you're just trying to emote and like build emotion and like maybe tell a story. And so you can be a little bit looser on like what are the results going to be.
But if you're like, like, let's just say like, cause like, you know, there's so many avenues of design, right? Like UX, where you're like, we need to make this like payment process as frictionless as possible, but it also has to be beautiful. Then that's when you get into the testing. But in general, like for me, corporate design, you know, I've been in-house worked at an in-house teams for like 20 years, various different companies.
And I've always been like, my thing is like, how do I find a way to say yes? Right? Because I think, you know, like young designers, you're kind of just like, you want to make something that's like badass for your portfolio. And as I've, the more time I've spent, like I understand the desire to have like beautiful work and make beautiful work. But you know, not everything is a portfolio piece. Sometimes you have to just like satisfy the need of the client or like the stakeholder and maybe find the joy for yourself, the fulfillment for yourself in small pieces of the project. But sometimes you just have to get things done. Yeah. So, and it's like, you think about like, with as a parent, like not everything is a teaching moment. Right? So like, it seems like the same with like the design, like not everything is gonna be a portfolio piece. Not everything is gonna be like this like thing that you're like, look at this. Sometimes you just have to get things done. Like, is it a teaching moment when you're trying to get your kid out to school?
And like they don't want to tie their shoes or are you gonna like tie the shoes? Get them to school without like having like a big, you know argument and then making them be upset going to school. Yeah, like who won?
Isaac
Yeah. On the flip side, like there doesn't maybe have to be joy in tying the shoe every time. Maybe there's some moments where something like that could spark some joy somehow. Because I feel like for creatives and creative work in the confines, if you will, of a corporation, that joy gets sucked out really quick. And I think a lot of creators maybe are searching or trying to kind of wedge that in. But I like what you said. It's like that balance of also, yeah, sometimes we just need to get that done. Say yes, and then find, discover ways to find the joy in your work despite that. Or even if that is the case that you sometimes just need to get something out.
David
Yeah, or in my case where like I came to the point where like I was like tired of giving my all my creative talent or even just my creativity to this like faceless board of investors basically right? Yeah and then understanding like it's okay to like, you know, do this work and save something for myself. And that's kind of like how these like a lot of things, a lot of factors folded into like why I started these books and like this project. But a lot of it also was just like, I want to do something for me and it's okay if like, my nine to five work is not fulfilling and maybe it shouldn't be. Like why am I giving myself to this when I can build something on my own for me by me?
Isaac
Yeah, it seems like joy is important for you. And I know joy can mean different things. I'm curious what that means for you. And maybe we're talking about work, but I know, fatherhood is important to you. Creativity is important to you. What would you say, why is joy important to you? What is it about it that you're maybe seeking in joy?
David
I think like it comes like everybody, like I think what you crave and like what you follow and chase kind of starts from your family upbringing right? Yeah. And for me my family was all about joy and you know my family is Puerto Rican. My father's side is Dominican but I was raised Puerto Rican which is like, might not make sense to people but there is a distinct difference and also like basically my family is like an immigrant family even though Puerto Rico is part of the United States and they didn't really have much you know we weren't like destitute we weren't we had you know, weird to say, but luckily when I was 11 months old, my father died. Freak heart attack. With the insurance money, my mom was able to buy this house. We were in the Bronx, outside of the city in the suburbs. And that house had you know, my grandparents, me, my mom, my sister, my aunt and uncle, my two cousins. And so we all were together in this house. And if my father hadn't passed, we would still be in the Bronx probably or whatever. But I got to have this like really nice upbringing in like the suburbs of New York City.
So, that being said, like we still didn't have much. It wasn't like we were like very well off. My grandfather was not very educated. And, he just like worked as a janitor and my grandmother stayed at home, watched the kids. My mom worked at the Department of Labor and later on she was a guidance counselor. But there was always joy. It was a very like God-centered family and upbringing and like church was a very important part of like community. So it was like importance wasn't placed on like, you know, what, you know, athletic club you were a member of or like where you went on vacation or what kind of car you drove or even just like The status at your job. It was just more about like finding joy with each other and like my grandfather, who has kind of like informed, the older I get and I just came across some like old videos, so it's like seeing it is crazy, but I realize how much he informed who I am as a person, my sense of humor and like my sense of like finding joy.
And like he would literally have like an orange juice and like sit back and think and say like, “I feel like a millionaire,” just because he was able to like sit back and have like a nice orange juice or something. Like it was that that like saying like, I feel like a millionaire. Yeah. Like that's all he needed in that moment. He wasn't thinking about like what is my 401k look like? He didn't have one. Like what is my like, what are my stocks look like? What is my like real estate portfolio? He didn't have any of that. He had orange juice and he was happy and generous.
I would see him, like we literally would be like going out to Easter lunch or something, and he didn't have anything. He had money from his jobs or whatever Medicaid he would get. And he'd walk past the family and just give them $100 to pay for their lunch.
Isaac
Strangers. Wow. That's awesome.
David
And it's like, whoa, like that informs, you know, those moments like that, like the millionaire comment. I mean, it's a little different, I guess, as the generation moves on, you kind of like more ambitious or whatever. But like, didn't lack ambition. He just like had joy already.
Isaac
Yeah. Do you, why do you think he, where do you think he got that from?
David
I think it was from his dedication to religion and God. And I think it just fulfilled him. It gave him purpose. It gave him stature in the community when there was no other way for him to get stature. know, uneducated. He found stature and fulfillment because he could be a leader in the church and a preacher and he'd go out and like sidewalks in New York City and preach. And I think like, I don't think it was like a selfish, like, look at me thing, but it did like give him respect in the community. And like, think about like coming here from somewhere, not being educated, not really knowing anybody, having to like, either be a janitor or like run, he would work in the diamond district and deliver diamonds or whatever. He was just a delivery person.
Isaac
Sounds dangerous.
David
He definitely got stuck up multiple times. But he found stature, and like I said, not in a selfish way, he found respect and stature through his preaching and his involvement in the church. And that also like fed his joy.
Isaac
So in some ways it kind of almost feels like your grandfather, it came from like within. Like he had established some things within himself that then gave him like his stature was within to then now be able to give joy instead of just having just enough for himself, so to speak, or just to kind of get by.
David
Yeah, and that fed all the whole family and like my whole family is very much so like. You know, my mom will call me and ask me like tell me like don't work too hard and which you know it's funny because Kelly my wife was raised her mom is Taiwanese and like that is not part of the upbringing. You know, it's we were raised very different, you know and like I wish I was raised how she was in some ways and she kind of is missing the like adoration that you know the Latino son gets which is like very much so like fawning and you do no wrong. So it's an interesting parenting challenge where sometimes I'm parenting how I wish I was parented and she's parenting how she wishes she was parented.
Isaac
Yeah, yeah. What would you say brings you joy? You found it. Is that something you're searching for?
David
Man, like recently, it's like a crazy, like as a freelancer, as someone that's like embarking on this like journey of self-publishing a book or several books, I found a lot of joy in being able to just make things that make me happy and then having those things resonate with people. I wasn't...thinking like, I'm gonna make these illustrations and turn them into the book and people are gonna love them. Like, I was just like, I don't know, this seems fun. And like, I really enjoy illustrating and like, asking myself the question of like, what would you just wanna do all day if you had your choice, what would be the best case scenario of what your daily life would be? And I'd be like, well, it'd be awesome to just draw and get paid for it. And so I just kind of set out to do that.
Isaac
Drawing seems to be something that brings you joy, something, a force that like you, it's not like just a hobby, it's something that you actively want to do. When did you first realize that? Is it something that when you were a child that you were just like picking up the pen and just like I love to draw or is it something you fell into later on in life? Where did the interest in drawing, I guess, start.
David
Yeah, from very young. It's funny, it's like I was always doodling and drawing. I loved drawing sports players in church. I was always doodling during the sermon. They had, I think I realized that people were interested in it. I got to do the cover of some program, that was the first time I at church. Yeah. And that was the first time where like, don't forget what I drew, but it was like, like what I'm doing, like a lot of people will see. And then like we had these like little envelopes for offering.
Isaac
I remember those.
David
And I would put the dollar in and there was like a little cutout I would flip it up so only George Washington's eyes would be and then I would like draw a whole drawing Make him into like a person on the envelope. That's awesome. Then hand it in and then like watch for the reaction of like Yeah, and then like apparently like they saved them all yeah, like they saved, they kept, I don't know where they're at now, but for a while they were saving all of the drawings. In New York, yeah. Like I said, where I grew up, in a new city, New York, which is a commuter town, so everybody that basically lives there works in the city and commutes in.
Isaac
Where was this? Was it a Puerto Rican community or a mix?
David
It was very mixed. Well, yeah, it was pretty mixed. Like if you were to look at my like first or third elementary school pictures, it's like just everything. My two best friends are Indian and Filipino. And that just like, like that group is basically like what is going on. There's so many Filipinos. So many Indians, there's a lot of Puerto Ricans up there, there's Haitians. And we all just kind of like mixed together in school. Like, I've been to like bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs. And I know about Haitian food and Filipino food. So it's just like, it was an amazing place to grow up because there was everything.
Isaac
Yeah. What was it like? You were young when your dad passed. It seems like your grandfather played a strong role in raising you. But what was it like growing up in that dynamic? I guess to get personal, when did your mom sit you down? Or did you have questions about where is dad? Do you remember what that was like when it came up?
David
Yeah, yeah. I do remember like asking like, where's my dad? And then they explained it and it was like, huh, okay.
Isaac
How old were you?
David
When I asked? I don't know. You know, like I have like a distinct memory also of being like in preschool and there was like a father-son day and my uncle took, gave me a like that before we went he gave me a Green Lantern action figure which is like now like I always think like the Green Lantern is awesome. But yeah I think that's the first time I felt like othered yeah and not in like a bad way but just like wait like I don't have a dad for Father Son Day, but you know like because we all lived together, my grandfather was there, an uncle was there, a couple of other uncles came and lived with us at different times because there was space. So I had these father figures and then coaches and stuff like that.
But yeah, like my grandfather was definitely like the strongest influence. He was just there the most and like teaching me and I'm also just observing.
Isaac
Yeah. Do you think that informs how you are as a father? Does it impact, the fact that those experiences, guess, kind of growing up maybe without a dad, do you think that has, now that you are a dad, do you see that playing at all into how you father or your perspective on things?
David
Yeah, like I just knew I've always wanted to be a father. Like always, because I just was like, I would do this and I would do this, like all the stuff that I wanted, you know, like I got so much from all these father figures, but like you can't like replace an actual father. And so yeah, like I just, I always know like I would be creative with them and like, you know, play music and like do all the things that I love about being a dad is like stuff that I've thought about forever and then like yeah I'm just like I get so much joy out of seeing my kids be creative like that is the best for me when I see them like just get lost in a project a creative project whether it's like drawing or like playing with magnet tiles like I just like I love that so much
Isaac
That's awesome. What is it about creativity that you think draws you? I know it sounds like such a maybe vague or basic question, but I'm curious, like, because creativity...some people are drawn to it more than others, feel like. And I'm wondering, what is it about that process? We were talking about process earlier. Maybe what is it about seeing your kids getting creative? If you could kind of describe maybe what it is that, what is it about it that you think you're drawn to?
David
I think it's like when like I haven't really thought about it. But like and you asking me the first thing that comes into my mind is just like making something out of nothing. And maybe there's like just like some satisfaction of like self-reliance of like I had nothing now I have something. And just like that act and then like that is satisfying and then having other people kind of validate in a way is the cherry on top. And that's just like, I've found a lot of like my self-esteem through creativity because that's what like made me different. And that's what made me get like positive reinforcement from the outside world.
Isaac
Like the envelopes.
David
Yeah, exactly.
Isaac
Interesting, It's cool that, I think it's cool that even at a young age, you've been able to keep up with that creativity and passion and drawing. I feel like a lot of people can't say that they, what they really enjoyed doing when they were a kid, you can still do now. And I think it's also cool that with Jokey Jokes and with the books, you're sharing that creativity and having that kind of, do I say it? The feedback, I guess, if you will, sharing it, your creativity, and getting that gratification of how people react to it. And jokes are probably one of the truest ways to get feedback from someone so to speak or see how they're processing it because you can't fake a laugh, right?
David
Yeah, I mean, you can, you can, but you know, like, yeah, and like going back to my grandfather, he always had a joke. Always.
Isaac
Yeah. Do you think that's where a lot of your sense of humor comes from?
David
Huge, I was just like, a family member reached out to me on Facebook recently and said like, I have all these like old home videos that your uncle shot. And I was like, just like send them and there's videos of no sound, stuff from 70s, 80s, a father's day, from my grandfather is receiving gifts. He's hilarious. Seeing them, I'm like, my God, this is me. Now I understand. My whole family is hilarious. It's so funny, seeing he was the cornerstone of the sense of humor for the family and seeing it, it made so much sense. So he always had a joke and I'd call him when I lived out here, when I moved and he always had a joke or his son would tell him a joke and he would tell me the joke and it was always a long thing but...
Isaac
Oh, so these are like, like either one liners or like... It's not necessarily banter, it's kind of like, it's the joke that he wants to tell you.
David
It's a story joke type deal.
But it was also like, he would, like there's two things that he always would get me with that I started doing with my kids, which is like in the morning, I'd wake up, I'd go get breakfast, whatever, and he would say like, how'd you sleep? And I said, I was okay. like, no, with your eyes closed. And I'm just like, such a simple, like that, like informed my sense of humor, or like I'd be like, ask him like, hey, can I get some water? And he'd be like, well, do you want it wet or dry? And I'd just be like, it's just such a simple, funny thing.
Isaac
So do your kids, how do they react to that these days? Because they've probably grown up with this, or is it kind of a little bit of half eye roll?
David
Well the first time it was funny but then you know, but now like through doing the book because like literally what happened with the books were my daughter was six at the time she was coming home from school and I think just at that age kids start trying to like tell jokes.
Isaac
Yeah, horrible ones.
David
Yeah, like not great, don't make sense, you still have to laugh and you're saying like you can't fake a laugh.
Isaac
Yeah, but at that age maybe we can get away with it.
David
You might. But I was just like, man, let's try to work on one real joke. Let's try to make a joke. And just as a parent of a kid that's six, there's arts and crafts stuff around everywhere. They're always, you know.
So we came up with the, what did the girl say to the tape? Let's stick together. simple. She could remember it, she could tell it. And then I was just like, I immediately for some reason saw it in my head as a drawing.
Isaac
Mmmm, it translated that way immediately.
David
Yeah, because I love character design and mascots and like...
So like immediately I saw it and I'm like, this would be like a cool like thing. And then like, just drew it for her to show her like, here's your joke. And then I was just like, that's cool. And then she wanted like, let's try another one. And like, maybe we couldn't figure it out right away, but my brain started working on these like simple jokes for her. And then to another and like obviously like testing it with her to see if she liked it if it made sense because I was like there's something like satisfying about her being able to like tell a joke and yeah like one joke turned into once I had like three I realized, like I've always had this desire to make a series and…
During COVID I made an illustration series called Quarantite which was based on how we were all dealing with life, staying at home to be safe.
Isaac
Is this like a almost like a comic type? Okay. I see.
David
It's literally like one-off illustration. I'll share it with you.
Isaac
Is this like a almost like a comic type? Okay. I see.
David
So I created this series and I posted it online, Instagram and on LinkedIn and people were like loved it. It was like, wow, this is amazing. And they were like, well, is there like posters? Is there like prints? And I was just like, no, I didn't think that way. like I said, I've always had this desire to create a series of just like a solid, like one thing, piece of work, a project. But then I realized like there should be something on the other side of the project to like bring it. People want tangible things and like they want to kind of interact with the work.
And so that kind of informed, once I had like three jokes, I was like, I can make a series and I can actually like make a book out of this. I didn't imagine, like right away, I didn't imagine it could be three books. But it kind of like, as the work progressed and I said like, and I really became obsessed with like making these simple, clever jokes. The second book was written by the time I finished illustrating the first one.
Isaac
That's cool that like, in a way I can't help but think that like you're carrying on the family heritage of telling jokes, right? And it's like translating throughout the generations you're instilling now to your daughter in your way, the jokes that your grandfather would you're doing it now through this medium of a book or it's really cool to kind of see that as I get to know your your family history that progression if you were that carrying on of your family tradition, heritage here.
David
Well, like speaking back to my grandfather, like, you know, with the orange juice, I'm a millionaire. And like also speaking to like his, like I said, like he didn't have 401k, he didn't have real estate portfolio. So like, I'm sharing my inheritance with everybody. And that's like, that makes me get emotional a little bit because it's like, it's an honor to share that with people.
Isaac
That's powerful because my next question was going to be, is there anxiety or apprehension that moment, say with the first book, or like sharing? Like, yeah, I feel like also in a way, what you said, that sense of honor and that gift that you're giving to others kind of overpowers any of that fear. kind of gets you over the hump. You feel is that what happened for you? How do you deal with the
David
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, there's always like nerves and fear and apprehension to like put stuff out. And but like the more I have put stuff out, I know what's on the other side of that, which is like an amazing feeling of like release, a feeling of like accomplishment. Like those two feelings alone is enough. And then if people like it, then that's just like cherry on top. But yeah, like just like, yeah, there, I like whether it's like, you know, going out in front of like a hundred elementary school kids and telling jokes or posting a video that I made with my daughter on Instagram. Like there's still that like, what if people don't like it? And then it's just like, well, whatever like it's gonna be like a moment and then they're gonna move on to the next thing if they don't like it. And if they do, cool.
Isaac
Would you say that…you've done a lot of work in your life, would you say that these series of jokes, especially because of the significance it has, like you shared, it's in a way, it's like sharing your inheritance. Would you say that as of now, this is like one of the most gratifying things you've done?
David
As of now, yes. I really hope that this is not the best thing I ever did.
And I feel like as long as I just continue to like stay true to myself and like what brings me joy and work hard at it, cause like people see illustration like, oh, that's so cool. It's so cool that you can do a fun thing for your work or whatever. And it is, and it does bring me a lot of joy, but I'm my own harshest critic. A lot of my time is spent telling myself wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, right.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, right.
And that is challenging and it's like when I can't get stuff out that I've that's in my head it's like very hard on me or like when I don't have the time to work on something and I have this like urge to make something it's very challenging and that can like you know, show it up in like how my attitude is toward my family, to my wife. Like if I'm not feeling creatively sound or creatively fulfilled.
Isaac
That energy, I like what you said earlier that energy needs to go somewhere yeah flow somewhere right?
David
Like if I'm not in a right space with that or if I'm like nervous about putting something out, like that informs like how I act and like sometimes it's fine or sometimes it's not. mean, but that's just, I guess, the human experience.
Isaac
Yeah, I think we can also there's a layer to it. think where we can probably relate being a dad and a husband like like what you said, you have those moments. Maybe you have this creative idea. You just need the time and space but that job it's like hard very very hard for all those things that align to create that pocket of space where you can do that. Do you have any methods or ways that you can get there, like pick up that idea when you have to leave it aside because you gotta tend to the kids or something like, how do you manage that when those timelines don't sync up exactly, you just need to let that energy flow? I know you had mentioned earlier, just going straight and putting it, going straight into into vectoring, like that's a way to just keep that energy going, I love that concept. What are some things that you do to keep that energy flowing and get into that space.
David
I think, yeah, I think now with like the family responsibilities and everything that that come up, a lot of the work is done like in my head before I sit down so that I can, when I do have the small amount of time to sit down and work on it, like I'm not making as many choices because I've already kind of like thought about it in here.
The problem is that...I can sometimes not be very present.
Isaac
I see. Because you're processing.
David
I'm processing. So, like this happened like this weekend. I was in the car. I went and did like jokes for some kids on Saturday. And it went great. And I was like thinking about like one joke that one of the dads like really laughed at. And like I was smiling because it was funny to me. And I enjoyed like, the whole thing with these jokes in this book is like, yes, it's for kids, but it's also for the parents too. so like seeing a kid laugh at the joke is like kind of a given because they really like them. But when I can get the parents to laugh, that is feels like a minute, like a win. And so I was just thinking about the moment and I was driving and my wife was like, why are you smiling? Like, what are you smiling at?
And apparently my kids were singing a funny song. I was not aware of that at all because in my head I was thinking of that reaction and the whole
Isaac
Haha. And then the next joke, the next, yeah.
David
And just like, I'm like so obsessed with this project. And like, obviously as an artist, and I think a lot of artists, yes, you get creatively fulfilled, like it's something in you, all those like fun, whimsical things. Yes. There's also just like an ego part of that too, where like, I'm not going to lie, like it's cool that I can do this and people are like, good.
And so I feel bad about not being present at the time. And it's half of, you I don't know what the ratio is, but like, yeah, some of it is like ego and like, you know, me driven. And some of it is just like this inherent thing that I have to do. And I feel like, this, like you said before, like is this to date like the most important thing you've done? Like yes. And I feel like I have like this opportunity where I really need to squeeze as much juice out of this thing as possible. Because I think it's rare that somebody can come up with something like a project that has this much legs and can kind of resonate. So I want to make sure like I don't look back and have the moment with the quarantine illustrations where I'm just like damn I should have done this I should have done that. Like I just want to like fulfill and honor the project as much as possible.
Isaac
Yeah. Yeah, I think it can be hard to juggle or not juggle, kind of have those walls of being a dad, being present, this opportunity that to kind of really put energy into it and feel like you have to sacrifice one or the other. But what I think is really cool about what you're doing is like those two worlds are actually kind of overlapping because they're dad jokes. The origination of the idea came through your daughter. And then I also think it's really cool the through line of you and your family lineage. You could be working on something that has nothing to do with any of those things. And then those two worlds of your being a dad.
And then your creative work could be complete, like could be on a polar opposite sides of the room. Right. But does that give you do you feel that as well? And do you feel like that enables you to show up as like your best self in those different arenas of your life or that's your work and fatherhood, even though let's give you a pass on that moment when you weren't present. That will happen. you get it.
David
Yeah, mean it's like such a deeply personal project. It's not like, you know, there's so many like serious artists that are making like these paintings and this sort of stuff that's deeply personal. This is my version of that, which is like it's very, very silly. But that is deeply personal to me.
Isaac
Mm-hmm. Yeah and that is you.
David
And that's me. And that's my whole family. So yeah, like...
It's almost like I'm constantly working on it as I'm interacting with my family. Not all the time am I thinking about jokes, but if my kid says something or we go somewhere and see something, it's all part of it.
Isaac
That's awesome. I'd love to hear a sense of music is important. And speaking of lineage, I know for Puerto Rican's music is a big part of culture, right? What are you, I feel like I'm asking these very basic questions, but I'm trying to frame it in different way. I was gonna ask, what do you like about music? That's something that's really hard to explain, but ⁓ what does music do for you, I guess, in the creative process? What does music do for you in ⁓ being a dad, and how do you engage with with your family even, like with music? Like you mentioned in the car, they're singing to a silly song like, I think music is very much a part of many families and I'm curious what that interaction is like. What is your interaction with music like?
David
So like from the start, so it's funny you say like with Puerto Ricans and maybe Hispanic and Latino families music is important. It was in my family but we didn't, like my family didn't dance. Like a lot of Puerto Rican families dance salsa music and like it's part of their like family but like our music was church music.
So, like, before I was born, my mom, my dad, would go out to different neighborhoods and sing Christian songs and gospel whatever songs as performances. My father was a trumpet player. So there's music in me. It's informed, I guess just in my DNA. But yeah, growing up the music that was in the, you know, cause we're in the eighties, it's like MTV. So there was some of that, but every week we would have service in the house. And that's like reading the Bible and like my uncle would play an accordion. Like he would wheel out this big accordion and we would sing hymns. My aunt would play the piano, his wife.
So that was every week. There was that. And then we'd go to church on Sundays and sing church songs. then sometimes after church we would go volunteer at the old people's home and like sing them hymns. So that was like the earliest kind of like music in my life. But as I got older and you start hanging out with friends, the radio, MTV,
And I just remember like sitting and drawing and listening to music. And then as I got into like junior high and started hanging out with friends, sitting listening to music, I had like a crew of two other kids and they also can draw. And we also like the same like music, which was like in the 90s in New York, it was like hip hop, like the best hip hop, in my opinion, and probably not just my opinion. But so it was just all kind of like in that same realm. And it wasn't just music. was like the videos and like what the people were wearing and like the CD covers and the CD art and like for me, seeing the CD art was what made me think, somebody made this and that's their job and that's cool. So yeah, the music has always been around. I think in general, as I work now, I feel at my best when I'm working if I am also enjoying music at the same time.
Isaac
Yeah, it almost feels like, I wish I framed the question better earlier, it almost feels like creativity and music, they go hand in hand so much. Meaning creativity, let's just say drawing. I can imagine the absence of music in those settings when you're with your buddies drawing versus...which you had, which is drawing, sitting around and then listening to music in the background. Speaking of like earlier, we're talking about energy and I can't help but think that like that energy from the music also feeds into your creative energy. Yeah. And they collide and then that creates something unique in and of itself. Not saying that you can't be creative without music, but I often find that most of the time, what are we doing when we're creating something, we're listening to something.
David
Yeah, working on something in the garage, it's always better when there's music. It just kind of like gives you a rhythm, I think. So yeah, like there was always like that rhythm and the desire to like have music. And then when I went to college, they would always play music while we were working and like.
You know, from early on to like when I got to college, I got kind of exposed to like classic rock and like all these other genres of music whereas before I was like just... But yeah, going away to college and like working in the studio and working on like a sculpture or a clay thing and like...hearing some old classic rock was like, I like that one and I like this one. And then later on after college, my first job was at this design studio that this guy, Mike Kwan ran. He always had music on. And it was smooth jazz or was also the classic station and getting in form. I'm wait a second, they sampled that song in this hip hop song. And now I like the original. But it was always about the rhythm, right? It just informed the work. Not always, but it felt like, all right, I feel good. And now I get to work and do something that also makes me feel good. So it's like...informs each other and it's just like well why wouldn't I want to feel like this all the time?
Isaac
Do you feel like, it may seem like an odd question, but do you feel like you have to feel good inside to create good work?
If that makes sense. I know this art piece is-
David
Well, I think it helps. But I think also like maybe if I'm not feeling good, working makes me feel good.
Isaac
Or the music will get you there and then yeah, gets it flowing.
Can you tell me a little bit more about how that translates? You mentioned like you noticed, seemed like you always kind of wanted to, I know you DJ, but it seems like you always kind of maybe already had that ear because you were like, I noticed that that was sampled in that hip hop. Can you tell me a little bit about DJing when that kind of came up? If that was earlier on, I know you're doing it now, but like what kind of sparked that in your relationship with DJing.
David
I think, no man, I've always been like really in tune with music as far as like what's coming out, what are the artists that I like. There's this radio show in New York, Stretchin' Babito, that would come on. So like I would like set it to record and like wake up and listen to it and it was like cultural currency so like if you knew What was good then that also just added to like your? Kind of like status in junior high or whatever. That's just like currency, right? like you knew what was new you knew it was good Yeah, yeah, was it was like a cultural currency and so
Isaac
How many kids are up at 3 AM too?
David
I was always seeking that out, seeking out what was new and what I liked and trying to share it with people and see if they liked it and if they were like, I like this, that felt good too. And then making mixtapes.
I remember I went to a dance. And I went by myself, I was meeting friends there, but I made myself this mixtape for the drive over to the dance. And it was all these songs that I had been listening to at that moment. And I was like, gosh, if I could find that mixtape now, I could probably piece it together in my head. But I remember feeling like this is my best mixtape I've ever made. And like each song like flowed in not that it was like mixed, but like each song like after another was like perfect. High Square. That was just me. I drove by myself and then like that was my mixtape. And I was just like this like mixtape is so good. Like I like the feeling that I created like the sequence of songs that felt like each song informed the next. So that's like my earliest, I guess, experience on that. And then that stuck with me.
But, and I've always been kind of, there was like one friend that DJed in high school. I went over his house once and I kind of like messed around with it, but it was just like, wait a second, like these turntables are how much? And like, where do you do this? And like, you have to find a place to do it in your house. That just doesn't seem like possible. But the love of music always stayed with me and my brother-in-law like over COVID gave me a set up like a two turntables and a mixer. And I had been like buying records because I had a turntable and there's always been this desire to DJ or a fascination with DJs, admiration for DJs whether like here in Portland or New York.
So yeah like I've always just wanted to do it and you know we're speaking about like those uncomfortable moments and overcoming them and what's on the other side. Imagine going in front of people and saying, hey everybody, listen to this music I'm playing and don't leave. And I'm gonna change the song and you're not really gonna notice and I'm not gonna mess it up.
Isaac
Yeah, and you're still keeping the vibe. You're still engaged with it.
David
So like that's uncomfortable to think like I'm going to put myself in that position. But in doing the book, like I said, I've continuously put myself in uncomfortable situations. And the more I did that, the more I got used to it. And I had this like set up in my shed. I finally had, you know, we moved into a house where I had space to put it somewhere and I ended up going to this record shop in town and he had open decks where you can just bring your records in and play. And so I was like, well I have the records and it's only like a half hour that's like 10 songs or something. It's like, I'm gonna do it, and like that was, you know, if I hadn't been doing all this book stuff, I wouldn't put myself out there like that. But I did. And on the other side of the like, should I do it? Should I not was like, like I finally did it and it felt awesome. And I have all this stuff at home. Like I should just plug it in and like do it. And the next open decks, I did it again. But this time I could practice on the turntables and stuff. And I'm not doing it, I'm not scratching and anything like that, but it's just creating a vibe, sustaining a vibe.
And so on the other side of that, should I do it, this is uncomfortable, is me getting to do something that I've always wanted forever. And also unlocking this whole other community of people that are amazing, share the same passion of music, that are just creative in their own way, also just I found that there's a lot of talk here in Portland about the diversity. And like, there's no diversity or whatever.
There's not, it's never gonna be New York, it's never gonna be LA. There is a group of people that are from different backgrounds here, you just have to seek out what they're doing. You have, like, if the people in Portland spent as much time looking for diversity as they do for a good pizza, then the conversation about Portland's diversity wouldn't be as loud.
Isaac
That’s interesting, because like even food I would say Portland has a very diverse and eclectic mix of cuisines from all over but yeah there's this air over it of like Portland is not very diverse and culture, I think, is would you say that's kind of lacking? Because when I think in New York you have all those things too, but the culture kind of cuts through in a very like tangible way. Like, yeah, it's diverse because there's the culture, there's Puerto Rican culture, there's Filipino culture. Would you say that that maybe is what you're saying is like kind of digging into it is like digging into the cultural aspects of the diverse cultures that are here versus just like, this is the next good Thai joint or whatever, right? Like.
David
Right. Well, I think like it's just never going to be in your face like it is in New York where there's Puerto Rican neighborhoods. There's like, it's just not going to be that way. And it's not going to be like LA where it's just in your face. You're going to have to like seek it out. It is here. And I think like the town, the city can do more things to uplift and amplify that.
And if that's what you're saying, then then yeah, I agree. Yeah, there's just like this like there's no diversity because I don't see it, It's kind of tough because like…somebody like I think I was at like a kid's party at Chuck E Cheese this weekend and for some reason the one parent was like, “so like everybody tell me like what you least like about Portland.” Which is kind of a whack premise right to have a conversation about right, to me…
Isaac
Seems like someone doesn't want to live here.
David
Right like why would you, right? Yeah, and the first person was like, “oh yeah, there's just no diversity,” and I looked around I was like we're in Chuck E Cheese right now in Beaverton and 80 % of the people in here are Latino. So what are you talking about diversity? Yeah, like just because you can see diversity but not like go out. It was very weird and I think like there's like this like idea of well I just want to be able to see it and be around it but not actually interact with it.
Isaac
Yeah, engage with it. Yeah. Yeah. We're in the fast food instant gratification, like quick, quick, quick bite kind of culture. So I think that translates into that also, like not really engaging with a culture. It's like, well, I didn't, I don't see it right in front of me. So…
David
Right. So it doesn't exist. That's exactly my point. Like no, it exists, but this is never going to be New York. It's never going to be LA. So if you want diversity, you should go seek it out. Because it does exist. There's My People's Market, which I'm working with now.
You can see all these beautiful vendors of different backgrounds. There's certain shops like Benchmark PDX that highlight people of color. There's the Black Rodeo this weekend in Portland.
Isaac
Yeah. Right, yeah, I've heard of this, yeah.
David
So like, no, there's not gonna be like a Filipino neighborhood. But if you like kind of pay attention and seek it out instead of just like sitting at home and then going to get food and not seeing what you wanna see.
Isaac
It almost kind of begs the question for the person that reacted that way that said diversity. It's like, do you really want it? Because I feel like if you wanted it, you might, you would think you'd have an intention to go seek it out more. But it seems like we're just like, I want it, but I don't want to invest in it.
David
Right. I think, yeah, it's like the ease. Like you said, like you can be in New York, you can go get a sandwich or go on the subway and like, wow, look like people that are different from me. Looks different.
Isaac
Right. And it looks different.
David
And then now I'm still staying in your same bubble.
Isaac
Yeah, yeah. Then I'll conveniently go back to my neighborhood.
I can't help but think David, like your story about the DJ process and then what we're talking about now. I feel like you're a naturally curious person and then you also maybe have been learning or have been acting more on taking that first step, curiosity and like tending is really important. Like it's important to not only go to that open set, but then to come back and then tinker again, dust off the records, investigate, tinker, keep the energy like almost like cultivating that energy so it doesn't die. Like a plant. I feel like what we're talking about, even with the cultural stuff is the same. It's like, if you're curious and maybe you have your first, I don't know, bite of a shawarma or something. Right. Don't stop there. Like you got to keep the energy and dig a little bit. Okay. What where can I find more of this culture? It takes intention, it takes some of this action, these steps. Yeah, not really a question just more of a thread. I feel like there's something, there's a thread there of like, you can't just leave it be, you gotta tend to it.
David
I'm interested, like…because I'm interested, I continue, Like whereas like, you know, I tried karate when I was a kid and I didn't really like it and I never did it again.
But with music, even speaking about being into hip hop and then years later in the studio hearing the old song that had, this is where they got that sample. then following that breadcrumb of, well, what else does this person make? Now you discover this discography that was sampled this, this, and this time.
And now you have like this whole other world that opened up. It's like unlocked. So like the more digging in you go, then like the more you get open to.
Isaac
Yeah, what's one artist or record that you have been or you are really stoked to introduce to your kids?
David
Man, I love it, because like when they're young like you just basically like play anything, right? Like they don't have strong opinions on what music is played. So I would just make my playlists that I like. I make playlists every season like spring, summer, fall, winter, whatever.
Isaac
By yourself.
David
Yeah. And it's basically all anything new that comes out, in that season will be on the playlist. Anything new that I like. Any genre. And so driving around like that's just the soundtrack. And like when they like pick up on a song and like it and then start singing along like that's the best. And then kind of like through DJing, I've been playing certain songs a lot more. There's this one song called “Call My Name” by Joe Batan. And it has this weird synthy opening and my son will just randomly at times sing that part. And that just fills my heart with joy because it's like, he's gonna like what he likes. But he's gonna remember that and he's gonna be a teenager and know that song.
Isaac
That's cool. That's what dad listened to and put on his mix. Are there any artists now that you're a dad or albums are just like, oh, I'd love to, I really want to introduce you. So it's just, just want to introduce them to all.
David
I like to just, I mean you know with kids you can't be too like, hey listen, you can't be too excited. You know what I mean? Because they can like, naturally they'll kind of push away if you are too excited to share something with them. So you kind of just have to be like, you know.
Isaac
Which is a good trait for strangers and yeah
David
Yeah, so you kind of just have to like put it there and just like see what happens and then like if they like it you're like you like that? And then like the next day like Yeah, so like it has to be very Very subtle. So like I I love like I think what's fun for them is like anything crazy and upbeat and like that they can like just go crazy to and like so like dancehall like reggae Mad Lion which is like the song is like very inappropriate for kids called “Shoot to Kill” but they don't really listen to the lyrics yet so it's fine and it's also in Jamaican Patois so like I barely understand it but like if I put that song on and turn it up like it's like wild crazy nice and it's just the best
Isaac
I'd love to hear, speaking of kids, I'd love to hear, I know we talked about it a little bit previously, but as a dad, what your kind of like routines that you keep that help you to be present and to be a good dad and to do your work. I'm curious like what some of those things that have stuck with you that have given you the most benefit, like what are some things that you do daily?
David
Yeah, I think like you can get caught up on your phone. Anybody can. Whether it's like work stuff or like pleasure stuff, whatever. And I think like it's important to throw the phone away and like easier said than done sometimes and like not done at all sometimes. like, think like, just recognizing it is like a big step, I think, to just like, you know, I don't remember trying to get her attention. You know what mean? Right. Because there was no, like, in those days when we grew up, like, I think people were probably obsessed with TV because like cable and like news or the newspaper. Right. But I think probably now more than before kids are having to like fight for their parents' attention.
And so like I think just, you know, like I spoke to like being present, like, and that's, you know, that's like the challenge, but also like the best thing I can do is just be present and be patient and reminding myself to be patient daily is like something so simple in the morning that I try to do like be patient, be kind, be diligent. Like if I kind of like repeat that to myself before I do anything else in the morning, I can like kind of like hear it in my head when things start to you know bubble up whether it's their you know energy or my energy start to hear that I'm like it simmers it down and I kind of like reset and I think like that that's a fairly recent thing for me but I think it's been really helpful to just kind of repeat like basically repeat what I want to be as a dad in my head before I do anything else in the morning like that kind of informs my parenting for the day.
Isaac
Yeah, what are those things?
David
So yeah like I said be be kind, which is like, you think like, why wouldn't you be kind? But like, be patient. I think sometimes when you lack patience, like kindness kind of like goes out the window. And then be diligent, which is like all the things that I need to do to kind of be a good dad, but also to like help my kids become who they need to be or get things done that will help them. And for me, being diligent with my son for the summer is help him learn how to ride a bike. It doesn't have to be anything so deep. It's just really like, want to be diligent in that. That's something that I feel like I can do and control to help him.
And with my daughter, be diligent is help her practice her guitar. Practicing the guitar can start arguments, so I also have to be patient in kinds. So it all kind of like, if I can like, all works together.
Isaac
Awesome.
Cool, well I wanted to, I knew that you were a graphic designer. I kinda knew that you were into logos back in the day, so I wanted to give you something. I don't know if you have this book, but this is just a, I think like a big collection of just all like historical logos and stuff.
David
No, I don't. That's wild. Thank you. Wow. This is amazing. Holy cow. So that's like the thing that...
Isaac
Yeah, no thank you for coming by.
There's sports logos.
David
That's the thing that like speaking to like the program at PSU. This is like I'm working on a logo project right now. This is like best timing. I'll probably see what I did for those people in here because nothing's original. That'll be really funny. CHC. Yeah, like the program that I went to at Miami, University of Miami, was great. But I feel like now being out of school and maybe that's just on me for like not being curious at the time because honestly like when I was in school the goal was to get a job so that I could pay off my student loans. Like the goal wasn't to get a job that was fulfilling and so that I could be an expert in my field and you know that was not the goal. I was like I need to pay off these student loans. So I think like I was just trying to get work. And I wasn't curious to the history of who made this, or who are the, I still don't know, who are the, you know, these graphic design gods that I should know, and what are these parts of the fonts, and I don't know, that's stuff that's just not part of my toolkit.
And so that's why I'm like jealous about PSU's program because that's the stuff that they're learning on top of just like brand. History. Yeah. This is really awesome. I like you do not at all have to do this. This is like.
Isaac
Yeah, they dig into those things. Like, history. That's cool.
David
But this is, this is really awesome. You did not at all have to do this, it’s beyond…
Isaac
I's my pleasure. But yeah, it's cool, right? Like logos have existed. There's some in there that I think are super old. Yeah. Right? Like I'm talking about like Rome.
David
Yeah, mean, yeah, like the person that made whatever the swords or whatever. Holy cow. My gosh, I can look at this forever. This is crazy. Thanks for that. This is like, can't even, like, I don't think I can say thank you. It's not even good enough. Holy cow. Wow
Isaac
I appreciate you coming by.
Cool, we'll kind of wrap it there I guess. But yeah, David, thanks for coming.
David
Man, this was nice. Really felt like an extension of what we talked about at the coffee shop.
Isaac
You know, it's funny, I've been having these conversations with people, like live, not like recorded, but in the backdrop of my mind is this project of like doing a podcast. And I can't help but think many times when I have conversations, like, damn, I wish I recorded that, you know? Like there's some really cool nuggets of stuff that happened here and there, but, and I'm learning the process, but like, there isn't, kind like what we talking before, I think there's an art form to not only conversation, but interviewing. I think interviewing, there's an art to it. I think with many things, like some people just have natural feel, but I think you can also learn a lot of things to kind of promote and draw out those conversations. Yeah, but I'm definitely learning like this is one of the first interviews I've done, but I've picked up so much already. Like there's so many little things that you can do to just make the interview, so to speak, like just draw out certain things, know.
David
I think you're good at it. I think you like ask questions from a sincere curiosity and it's not like that feel I felt like it was like a thoughtful like kind of like laid out yeah conversation without being like so like strict yeah so rigid.
Isaac
That's, I think the, appreciate that. I think that is what I'm finding is the challenge. I think it's very similar to any kind of work too, finding this balance between like what needs to be done, function, but then leaving enough room where you can just express and be yourself.
Because I think that's the hard part about interviewing is like, there are certain things I know I want to, come in where I'm like, I know I want to talk to David about these things, but then the conversation is fluid. can't, you can't just be so strict and just be like, go into it like a regimented kind of like conversation. At least I don't think any good conversation comes out of that, but finding that balance of like knowing that there's something topics you wanna talk about, then having that, so that function, but then also having that form and freedom, I think is what I'm curious about learning how to get better at.
David
And I mean, like there's so many things like finding your voice as an interviewer. Yeah. And then also finding kind of like the purpose of the podcast and like the identity of the podcast. And that'll take a few times, but it'll reveal itself and like, know, an organic. Yeah. But you have to do the work of not stopping. Because it will reveal itself and it'll feel right and then you'll have that like aha moment of like okay like this makes sense to do this this and this and like this is how I can make something that feels like like me and what's scratching that creative itch inside you to make something original.
Isaac
Yeah, I'm really inspired by that. Like, it's funny too, when you do these long form conversations, it's so funny how things go full circle. And that's usually a good way. That's a good indicator of, to wrap. I'm thinking about even what you said about saying, yes, don't stop. taking these things away, right? Like in the process and what you just said, it'll reveal itself.
David
Yeah.
Isaac
I think that I believe that, like I have this gut feeling that if you say yes, don't stop, keep tinkering, something will get revealed. And I think that's one take what I'm getting from this conversation with you.
David
Yeah, and like I said, the whole like wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, right. Right. Yeah. Thing where it's just like you have to explore all these wrong answers to get to the right. You're like finding out the right answer on the first try for a creative project is just not. That's not the way. Yeah. So like wrong, wrong,
Isaac
I feel like it would feel wrong too. Yeah. If you got it the first time, try walking away from me, you be like, I don't know, something didn't feel right about that. You almost feel like you need to grind it a little bit.
David
Well, you have to be curious. I think like, you're not curious if your first answer is the last one. And like, if you're not curious, then you're probably not trying to make anything.
Isaac
Yeah, or the work is done. Yeah. Where's the fun in that? If you did one and done, it's done.
David
Well that's like, that's my whole like thing with AI. Where like there's people there like, well now you can make a, take a portrait in no time. And you don't have to like hire a photographer, you don't have to do that. Or like now you can make an illustration in no time. But like making illustri- they don't understand that it's fun to work on something. And like there's joy in creating something. I mean I get it if like I can't draw, like a person can't draw and they want to make something. There's joy in that final product of the thing that they made in five minutes and it's like I made that. But they're not pursuing something bigger than just making something for a specific thing to get it off their plate.
Isaac
Yeah. Yeah.
David
There's like a bigger purpose. And like, I think there's just like a lack of understanding of like, there is a need to fulfill that like void inside yourself by making this thing and going through the process.
Isaac
We don't like friction. Kind like we were talking about before. We... It's hard to... That's part of what I'm interested in getting out with this podcast too is like... It's called MAUM is what I'm thinking. Yeah, it's a Korean word. It actually means heart or soul, will or intention. And it's like in the Korean language, like there's certain words that have like, it's like hard to define. It's just like almost like a feeling. And that's what this word is.
And to me, I'm finding like if there's friction or things like that, like what drives us to kind of, what drives certain people to just go a little bit more, to peek around the corner a little bit more. And that's where things like fatherhood are really interesting to me as a theme within that because in my own personal process like doing this crazy stuff like I never would have thought I'd be doing anything like this but in some weird way just to keep a long story short it was me thinking about fatherhood and inheritance like what can I share with my kids and to me I gained so much from voices from other people that are wanted than me and like have insight, more insight than me that I was like, Hey, I want to gather these things for my kids and I want to share them. How can I share them? I got to record them, but it can't, it doesn't have to stop there, I can now share it with other people too. I think very similar to Jokey Jokes and things like this.
Like there's this thing. Sure. It can get conceited in some places, but when I really sit and think about it, it's not coming from a conceited place. I just want to share it. Right. Because I think this is something that not only expresses who I am, but I think some other people can get, whether it's joy or insight or something out of it. But yeah, one way of saying that, like that friction in our lives, I think what I'm interested is talking to people about. How do you get past that? And I think being a dad is a strong force to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation. You don't even want to do, but you do it and it tips you over because you're a dad and you love the kid.
David
Yeah, absolutely. Like part of like also part of the whole kind of process of how this book and this illustration style came to be was that in becoming a dad, like leading up to it and even as first as a young dad or whatever, excuse me.
Like I was always as a designer trying to like fit in and like be cool and be a cool designer and be like serious. And like that, those aspirations like for me went out the window when I became a dad because like I didn't have time to like, you know, think about that stuff and like I'm like wiping butts and I'm like you know, wearing the same thing for three days in a row. And like, you know what I mean? Like all these like, it to chip away at this like facade of cool. And then you start to realize, well, if my kids are cool with it, then like who cares what everybody else thinks? Because like that's all that matters anyway. And like speaking to like, giving this to your kids and it's cool to be able to share this with them, but they also see you making something. And that's awesome. He went out and set up the tripods and he's making something and he recorded it and now this is the recording. They don't really have an understanding that like, this is not like you're nine to five and this is not what's, you know, buying the groceries or whatever, but they see that you had an idea and then you made it. And I think that's so important to just like share with them that like you can do whatever you want as long as like you work hard at it and you know, try to do a good job.
Isaac
Yeah, I agree. Showing that and then showing curiosity. Being curious enough to be like, well, I what it's like to...
David
Yeah and then take the step to put it out, don't be scared. Because I the fear is holding, it held me back for such a long time. And the fast, I tell this to all the young designers that I meet, the faster you overcome that fear, the more fulfilling your work is gonna be. Whatever it is. Because we only have a certain amount of time on this earth. Why waste it being scared when on the other side of that is joy?
Isaac
Do you think that just comes with age?
David
Yeah. But also, I wish somebody told me. Nobody told me that.
Isaac
Yeah, like the fear thing, I think is interesting because yeah, sure, Ican make I don't know, there's probably some kind of book or something. You can maybe be taught or told things, but to internalize it and then do that. don't know if there's any other way other than just. Coming from within or just experience.
David
Yeah, I would say like I was equipped to like turn the corner. like in that like I learned how to be very efficient in my illustration style. I learned how to meet deadlines. I learned how to like lay out a book. I learned, I built relationships with people in stores that carry my book before I even had the idea to have a book. You know what I mean? So like I was well equipped to put myself out there. And even though I was well equipped, I was still scared, like being scared and also not being equipped is a bad combo.
Isaac
Yeah that's true. It's almost like you got to build some level of confidence in yourself. Yeah. To take that step. then also you can lean on that, but also be kind of good with failure. Yeah. Like even though like just confidence or not, like just stepping forward.
David
You can't just not be ready. Because when the opportunities don't come up all the time, right? So if the opportunity comes to speak in front of a school and I don't put my deck together right or I show up late, all that stuff happened way before I had a book, learning that stuff.
Isaac
Yeah, it's kind of like being a dad, isn't it? when we had our kids, yeah, we I don't know what your process was like, but you you could learn all these things about changing diapers, all these things. But no one ever really prepares you for what it's like having that child. And then then it's just you took that step. You're kind of forced into taking that first step. Yeah. And then the rest is like you're rolling with it.
You're leaning on the things you know that you've built confidence and skill in.
Like we have fears, right? As dads, whether it's early on, like, are they sleeping enough or eating the right things or whatever to like future, oh, when they get a cell phone in their hand, what's going to happen? Like we have those fears, but in some ways we, it's different than any other thing because you're just, you can't change the fact that you're a dad no matter what you do.
And so now you're kind of in that arena and you have to figure it out. And I think there's something maybe viable if you can translate that to other instances of your life. Like, I'm in this. I got to figure it out as opposed to I'm scared. I'm not even going to go in here. But you have that choice in other arenas. Like, do I want to step in there? Do I want to go dig more into this culture and diversity or not? Or like you kind of, there's a switch I think things to happen in your life where you're like, I'm in this, so let's make the best out of it or let's say yes.
David
There's like so much in this world that you can't control, Yeah. But there are a few things that you can and so like if you can kind of hone in on those and I don't know if master them is the right way to put it but like if you can deal with the stuff that you can control then when something unexpected happens like those things that you can control inform how you react. like typically, you know, like I can control leaving the house on time. I can control preparing the night before, you know? Or like, you know, leaving the house early even so that you plan on getting somewhere a half hour or 15 minutes before and you prepared last night so you're not nervous as much. you know, if some happens on the way, like you're still good, you know? Right.
Isaac
Yeah, it's a constant evolution. But I also think that's one thing I'm interested with this podcast is like those three kind of areas of your life that I feel like if you put practice to them, just like you're saying, you can be set up for better success. But I think they often live in compartmentalized spaces.
David
Yeah, we were talking about how like if you can get those like, yeah, let's three three circles
Isaac
Closer together you feel like more…either prepared or like confident or just like in those moments where you're just like, I'm in it. You can deal with it. And to me, I'm interested in stuff of like your mind. So I think that's everything from like creativity to work to like your psychology and stuff like that. Then your body, which is like, this is your vessel that you have. You got to tend to it otherwise you won't be able to do any any other things right and then finally which i think is maybe more elusive especially like this day and age is like what i would just call like the soulful things whether it's what you believe or like what is that? But I feel like those things, if you can bring them closer together and have practices to like tend to each of those and explore them and get more, I don't know, proficient is the right word, but more like just explore it more and have like rigor around those. Then. Yeah. I feel like.
David
I like that rigor. Like it's because it's work. It's not going be easy.
Isaac
Yeah. It is. And that's where the name of the podcast MAUM or intention. It starts with an intention. So what's your intention? Fatherhood being a dad, think is one of the strongest, relatable intentions you can have. So that to me translates to at least for me, what I'm exploring, it translates to, want to be really good. I want to understand what it is to have a good mind, what it is to have a good body, what it is to like, soulfully have those all together. And then I think that enables me then to be a better dad and stuff like that.
risograph
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MAUM